In this episode of People Play Story, we delve into the art of storytelling and impactful communication with insights drawn from Martin Kloss's book, "People Play Story." Although the book is currently available only in German, the podcast aims to reach a broader audience by exploring its key themes. We discuss the concept of a "dialogue mindset," which encourages speakers to view communication as a two-way street, even during solo presentations. This approach is likened to a tennis match, where adapting to audience reactions is crucial for effective engagement.
We explore the importance of nonverbal cues and how they can transform a monologue into a dynamic conversation. By paying attention to clusters of cues, speakers can better understand audience engagement and adjust their delivery in real-time. The episode also highlights the value of acknowledging these cues to foster a more interactive and engaging presentation.
Martin Kloss emphasizes the significance of stepping out of one's comfort zone to connect with audiences authentically. By comparing the comfort of a couch to the vibrant atmosphere of a bustling restaurant, he illustrates how true comfort in communication comes from embracing vulnerability and connecting with others.
Listeners are encouraged to shift their focus from delivering a flawless performance to creating genuine connections. By embracing imperfections and being present, speakers can cultivate a more authentic and engaging experience. The episode concludes with practical advice on leveraging personal strengths to boost confidence and foster a conversational tone, ultimately finding joy in the process of communication.
[00:00:08]
Martin Kloss:
Hi, and welcome to People Play Story, a podcast about storytelling and how to communicate with impact. My name is Martin Kloss, and I'm a professional story coach and speaker trainer. I recently wrote a book. It's called People Play Story, but it's only available in German for now. So to help me reach a wider audience and spread the word about the power of stories, I created this podcast. Full disclosure, what you're about to hear is generated by an AI, courtesy of Google's notebook LM. And each episode is based on a different chapter of my book. I hope you enjoy it and that I can give you something to think about today. Have fun.
[00:00:53] Unknown:
Have you ever been on stage by yourself, but it still kinda feels like you're having a conversation with the audience? Yeah. Totally. It's not just a feeling, though. It's like the reality of nonverbal communication. Yeah. Even when we think we're giving a monologue, we're constantly picking up on all these little cues from the people listening. Right. And that's actually what this whole deep dive is about, like, how to make those one-sided presentations feel more like a real dynamic conversation even when you're the only one with a microphone.
[00:01:20] Unknown:
And we're gonna be drawing some insights from the book People Play Story. It's by Martin Kloss, who knows a lot about communication.
[00:01:27] Unknown:
Yeah. Kloss really emphasizes this idea of a dialogue mindset, which is basically just approaching communication as a two way street, even if it doesn't always feel that way. He even compares it to, get this, a tennis match. Well, think about it. You wouldn't just keep serving the ball the same way if your opponent kept acing you every time. Right? True. True. You've gotta mix it up, adapt to what the other player is doing. Exactly. And it's the same with speaking. You've gotta be aware of how people are reacting to what you're saying and
[00:01:55] Unknown:
adjust your approach accordingly. So it's not just about reading body language. It's about actually responding to it in the moment, kinda like a tennis player adjusting their strategy based on their opponent's moves. Exactly. You got it. Are people nodding along, eyes glued to you? Mhmm. Or are they, like, leaning back, checking their phones? All of that is giving you feedback in real time, and your job is to kinda weave that into how you're presenting.
[00:02:21] Unknown:
Oh, man. This reminds me of this one presentation I did. I thought everyone was nodding along because they were, like, super into it. Turns out they were just trying to stay awake. If I had been more tuned into their energy, I definitely would have changed things up a bit. Yeah. And that's what makes this dialogue mindset
[00:02:38] Unknown:
so valuable. It helps you avoid those kinds of situations. Close talks about how even really subtle things like a change in posture or the way someone's looking at you can tell you a lot about how your message is landing.
[00:02:50] Unknown:
So how do we actually get better at reading those little nonverbal cues?
[00:02:54] Unknown:
It feels like some people are just, like, born with this ability. It can seem like magic, but, honestly, it's a skill you can definitely get better at with practice. One thing Close recommends is to pay attention to it, like clusters of cues instead of just one thing by itself. What do you mean? So, like, someone crossing their arms, maybe they're just cold, but if they're also leaning back and not really making eye contact, that's a much stronger sign that they've kinda checked out. That makes sense. It's like you're putting together all these little pieces of a puzzle to try and figure out what your audience is thinking and feeling. Exactly. And you don't need to be a mind reader or anything. Sometimes just acknowledging what you're seeing nonverbally can make a big difference. Like, what what would you say? You could be like, I'm seeing some furrowed brows out there. Is there anything about this point that's not quite clear? Ah, that's such a good tactic
[00:03:42] Unknown:
Because you're not just showing that you're paying attention, you're also inviting them to be more engaged even if that wasn't part of the plan at the beginning. Exactly right. And that's the cool thing about this whole dialogue mindset. It's about
[00:03:53] Unknown:
being present and flexible in the moment
[00:03:56] Unknown:
instead of being glued to your script. So it's like we're shifting from just delivering information to actually trying to have a conversation even if it's just us speaking. But how do we actually do that, especially when even the thought of public speaking makes us want to, like, disappear.
[00:04:13] Unknown:
That's where this idea of the comfort zone comes in, and Kloss has some really interesting thoughts about this in People Play Story. He basically says that wanting to feel comfortable, especially in situations that feel really important, can actually get in the way of us connecting with people. That rings true. When I get nervous about presenting,
[00:04:31] Unknown:
my instinct is to just, like, hide behind my notes and avoid going off script at all costs.
[00:04:36] Unknown:
Right. And that's a completely normal reaction, but what Close point out is that true comfort isn't about avoiding uncomfortable things entirely. It's more about getting better at handling them, and he actually uses a really helpful comparison here. He wants us to imagine the difference between being at home on the couch.
[00:04:53] Unknown:
Being at home on my couch does sound pretty appealing right now, especially if we're talking about facing my fear of public speaking.
[00:05:00] Unknown:
What's the alternative Kloss offers? So he contrasts that comfy couch feeling, right, with, like, being somewhere new and kinda busy. Maybe a restaurant, lots of people around. Okay. I'm with you. And, yeah, maybe it's not as physically comfy as your couch, but you're with friends having those good conversations, and that creates a different kind of comfort. The kind that comes from connecting with people and sharing an experience. So it's like instead of looking for comfort in being alone,
[00:05:25] Unknown:
we find it in those connections with others even if it means dealing with a little uncertainty.
[00:05:30] Unknown:
Exactly. And that's what Close wants us to do as speakers. Instead of thinking of a presentation as this thing we need to perfectly control, what if we saw it as a chance to really connect with people even if it means we gotta be a little vulnerable? That's a big shift in thinking for sure. Because when we're focused on connecting, it's less about us and our flaws. It's about that shared human experience. You got it. And we've all had those pre presentation jitters. Right? The racing heart, sweaty palms. Just admitting those feelings are real. It's like the first step to moving through them. Instead of pretending they're not there, we say, yep. Those are my nerves, and that's okay. Totally. And I think that's where that advice to just get out of your comfort zone can miss the mark.
It's not about forcing ourselves to do stuff that freaks us out. It's about stretching those boundaries little by little, getting better at handling those uncomfortable feelings without letting them totally take over. It's like, I don't know. If you can't swim, you wouldn't jump right into the deep end. Right? You'd wade in slowly, getting used to the water at each step. Perfect analogy. Mhmm. And it's the same with public speaking. The more we practice dealing with those nerves, the more confident we get.
[00:06:37] Unknown:
We start trusting ourselves to handle whatever happens, whether it's a tough question or a tech issue. You know? And that confidence, that ability to just roll with it when things go off script, that's what makes someone really captivating to listen to. A 100%.
[00:06:50] Unknown:
When we're so busy trying to be perfect to hit all our marks, we lose that natural
[00:06:56] Unknown:
human element that people connect with. It's like the difference between, I don't know, a super choreographed dance and just letting loose with your friends. Both are fun, but the energy is totally different. Exactly. That real authentic energy
[00:07:09] Unknown:
is contagious.
[00:07:10] Unknown:
When we're willing to let our guard down a little, it gives the audience permission to do the same. It creates a space for that true connection, which honestly is what we all want, right, as speakers, as people. So how do we close that gap between wanting to be comfortable and wanting to connect? How do we be vulnerable in a way that feels good and not terrifying?
[00:07:29] Unknown:
That's where Kloss gets really interesting. He says real comfort doesn't come from avoiding vulnerability. It comes from accepting it as part of being human. And he uses this other great comparison that he compares embracing vulnerability to. He brings up the idea of traveling to a new and unfamiliar place. Interesting. I could see where this is going. Right. Like, think about it. When we travel, we often trade the familiar comforts of home for, like, the thrill of the unknown. Yeah. And, yeah, there might be moments of uncertainty, maybe even a little anxiety about, I don't know, language barriers or navigating a new city, but those challenges are often, like, totally overshadowed by the excitement of new experiences and the opportunity to learn and grow. Absolutely. That feeling of I navigated that successfully after a day of mishaps in a foreign country is incredibly rewarding. Exactly. And it's kinda like that with embracing vulnerability in how we communicate. Right? It's not about seeking out discomfort for the sake of it. It's about recognizing that growth and connection
[00:08:27] Unknown:
often lie just beyond those comfort zones. So instead of trying to present this perfect, polished version of ourselves, we lean into the authenticity of our experience knowing that those imperfections are often what make us relatable and interesting. Exactly. When we let go of the need to control every single thing, it opens us up to a much more genuine and engaging experience, both for ourselves and for the people listening. This has been incredibly insightful. But before we wrap up, I wanna bring this back to a practical level. For those of us listening who are still, like, working on embracing vulnerability and cultivating that dialogue mindset, what's one concrete step we can take today to start putting these ideas into practice?
[00:09:07] Unknown:
That's a good question. I'd say take a minute to think about what makes you feel really comfortable and confident as a speaker. Is it a particular topic you're, like, super knowledgeable about, or maybe a certain group of people you feel totally at ease with? Once you identify that source of strength, use it as a springboard.
[00:09:24] Unknown:
Okay. So say I'm really passionate about sustainable living, and I'm talking to a group of people who are also into environmentalism.
[00:09:31] Unknown:
I can draw on that shared passion to boost my confidence and create a more natural conversational tone. Nailed it. You'll find that when you're genuinely engaged with your topic and your audience, the need for a perfectly polished, you know, persona fades away. It's less about performance and more about connection. I love that. This idea of embracing imperfection,
[00:09:52] Unknown:
of shifting from performance to connection is something I really want everyone listening to take away from this deep dive. Remember, it's not about being flawless. It's about being present, engaged, and willing to connect on a human level. Couldn't have said it better myself. And who knows? You might even find yourself enjoying the experience more along the way. Such a great point to end on. The goal is to find joy in the process, not just strive for that perfect outcome. Thank you so much for this deep dive. It's definitely given us all a lot to think about. My pleasure. Always happy to chat about this stuff. That's it for this episode, everyone. Until next time.
[00:10:36] Martin Kloss:
Hi, everyone. It's me again. Just a quick note before I let you go. I hope you found today's episode entertaining, engaging, and maybe even inspiring. If you did, please spread the word. And if you didn't, please keep it to yourself. And if you wanna know more, have any questions, or wanna work with me, please get in touch with me on martinklaus.com or on LinkedIn. Now have a great day. Go out and do something fun.
Hi, and welcome to People Play Story, a podcast about storytelling and how to communicate with impact. My name is Martin Kloss, and I'm a professional story coach and speaker trainer. I recently wrote a book. It's called People Play Story, but it's only available in German for now. So to help me reach a wider audience and spread the word about the power of stories, I created this podcast. Full disclosure, what you're about to hear is generated by an AI, courtesy of Google's notebook LM. And each episode is based on a different chapter of my book. I hope you enjoy it and that I can give you something to think about today. Have fun.
[00:00:53] Unknown:
Have you ever been on stage by yourself, but it still kinda feels like you're having a conversation with the audience? Yeah. Totally. It's not just a feeling, though. It's like the reality of nonverbal communication. Yeah. Even when we think we're giving a monologue, we're constantly picking up on all these little cues from the people listening. Right. And that's actually what this whole deep dive is about, like, how to make those one-sided presentations feel more like a real dynamic conversation even when you're the only one with a microphone.
[00:01:20] Unknown:
And we're gonna be drawing some insights from the book People Play Story. It's by Martin Kloss, who knows a lot about communication.
[00:01:27] Unknown:
Yeah. Kloss really emphasizes this idea of a dialogue mindset, which is basically just approaching communication as a two way street, even if it doesn't always feel that way. He even compares it to, get this, a tennis match. Well, think about it. You wouldn't just keep serving the ball the same way if your opponent kept acing you every time. Right? True. True. You've gotta mix it up, adapt to what the other player is doing. Exactly. And it's the same with speaking. You've gotta be aware of how people are reacting to what you're saying and
[00:01:55] Unknown:
adjust your approach accordingly. So it's not just about reading body language. It's about actually responding to it in the moment, kinda like a tennis player adjusting their strategy based on their opponent's moves. Exactly. You got it. Are people nodding along, eyes glued to you? Mhmm. Or are they, like, leaning back, checking their phones? All of that is giving you feedback in real time, and your job is to kinda weave that into how you're presenting.
[00:02:21] Unknown:
Oh, man. This reminds me of this one presentation I did. I thought everyone was nodding along because they were, like, super into it. Turns out they were just trying to stay awake. If I had been more tuned into their energy, I definitely would have changed things up a bit. Yeah. And that's what makes this dialogue mindset
[00:02:38] Unknown:
so valuable. It helps you avoid those kinds of situations. Close talks about how even really subtle things like a change in posture or the way someone's looking at you can tell you a lot about how your message is landing.
[00:02:50] Unknown:
So how do we actually get better at reading those little nonverbal cues?
[00:02:54] Unknown:
It feels like some people are just, like, born with this ability. It can seem like magic, but, honestly, it's a skill you can definitely get better at with practice. One thing Close recommends is to pay attention to it, like clusters of cues instead of just one thing by itself. What do you mean? So, like, someone crossing their arms, maybe they're just cold, but if they're also leaning back and not really making eye contact, that's a much stronger sign that they've kinda checked out. That makes sense. It's like you're putting together all these little pieces of a puzzle to try and figure out what your audience is thinking and feeling. Exactly. And you don't need to be a mind reader or anything. Sometimes just acknowledging what you're seeing nonverbally can make a big difference. Like, what what would you say? You could be like, I'm seeing some furrowed brows out there. Is there anything about this point that's not quite clear? Ah, that's such a good tactic
[00:03:42] Unknown:
Because you're not just showing that you're paying attention, you're also inviting them to be more engaged even if that wasn't part of the plan at the beginning. Exactly right. And that's the cool thing about this whole dialogue mindset. It's about
[00:03:53] Unknown:
being present and flexible in the moment
[00:03:56] Unknown:
instead of being glued to your script. So it's like we're shifting from just delivering information to actually trying to have a conversation even if it's just us speaking. But how do we actually do that, especially when even the thought of public speaking makes us want to, like, disappear.
[00:04:13] Unknown:
That's where this idea of the comfort zone comes in, and Kloss has some really interesting thoughts about this in People Play Story. He basically says that wanting to feel comfortable, especially in situations that feel really important, can actually get in the way of us connecting with people. That rings true. When I get nervous about presenting,
[00:04:31] Unknown:
my instinct is to just, like, hide behind my notes and avoid going off script at all costs.
[00:04:36] Unknown:
Right. And that's a completely normal reaction, but what Close point out is that true comfort isn't about avoiding uncomfortable things entirely. It's more about getting better at handling them, and he actually uses a really helpful comparison here. He wants us to imagine the difference between being at home on the couch.
[00:04:53] Unknown:
Being at home on my couch does sound pretty appealing right now, especially if we're talking about facing my fear of public speaking.
[00:05:00] Unknown:
What's the alternative Kloss offers? So he contrasts that comfy couch feeling, right, with, like, being somewhere new and kinda busy. Maybe a restaurant, lots of people around. Okay. I'm with you. And, yeah, maybe it's not as physically comfy as your couch, but you're with friends having those good conversations, and that creates a different kind of comfort. The kind that comes from connecting with people and sharing an experience. So it's like instead of looking for comfort in being alone,
[00:05:25] Unknown:
we find it in those connections with others even if it means dealing with a little uncertainty.
[00:05:30] Unknown:
Exactly. And that's what Close wants us to do as speakers. Instead of thinking of a presentation as this thing we need to perfectly control, what if we saw it as a chance to really connect with people even if it means we gotta be a little vulnerable? That's a big shift in thinking for sure. Because when we're focused on connecting, it's less about us and our flaws. It's about that shared human experience. You got it. And we've all had those pre presentation jitters. Right? The racing heart, sweaty palms. Just admitting those feelings are real. It's like the first step to moving through them. Instead of pretending they're not there, we say, yep. Those are my nerves, and that's okay. Totally. And I think that's where that advice to just get out of your comfort zone can miss the mark.
It's not about forcing ourselves to do stuff that freaks us out. It's about stretching those boundaries little by little, getting better at handling those uncomfortable feelings without letting them totally take over. It's like, I don't know. If you can't swim, you wouldn't jump right into the deep end. Right? You'd wade in slowly, getting used to the water at each step. Perfect analogy. Mhmm. And it's the same with public speaking. The more we practice dealing with those nerves, the more confident we get.
[00:06:37] Unknown:
We start trusting ourselves to handle whatever happens, whether it's a tough question or a tech issue. You know? And that confidence, that ability to just roll with it when things go off script, that's what makes someone really captivating to listen to. A 100%.
[00:06:50] Unknown:
When we're so busy trying to be perfect to hit all our marks, we lose that natural
[00:06:56] Unknown:
human element that people connect with. It's like the difference between, I don't know, a super choreographed dance and just letting loose with your friends. Both are fun, but the energy is totally different. Exactly. That real authentic energy
[00:07:09] Unknown:
is contagious.
[00:07:10] Unknown:
When we're willing to let our guard down a little, it gives the audience permission to do the same. It creates a space for that true connection, which honestly is what we all want, right, as speakers, as people. So how do we close that gap between wanting to be comfortable and wanting to connect? How do we be vulnerable in a way that feels good and not terrifying?
[00:07:29] Unknown:
That's where Kloss gets really interesting. He says real comfort doesn't come from avoiding vulnerability. It comes from accepting it as part of being human. And he uses this other great comparison that he compares embracing vulnerability to. He brings up the idea of traveling to a new and unfamiliar place. Interesting. I could see where this is going. Right. Like, think about it. When we travel, we often trade the familiar comforts of home for, like, the thrill of the unknown. Yeah. And, yeah, there might be moments of uncertainty, maybe even a little anxiety about, I don't know, language barriers or navigating a new city, but those challenges are often, like, totally overshadowed by the excitement of new experiences and the opportunity to learn and grow. Absolutely. That feeling of I navigated that successfully after a day of mishaps in a foreign country is incredibly rewarding. Exactly. And it's kinda like that with embracing vulnerability in how we communicate. Right? It's not about seeking out discomfort for the sake of it. It's about recognizing that growth and connection
[00:08:27] Unknown:
often lie just beyond those comfort zones. So instead of trying to present this perfect, polished version of ourselves, we lean into the authenticity of our experience knowing that those imperfections are often what make us relatable and interesting. Exactly. When we let go of the need to control every single thing, it opens us up to a much more genuine and engaging experience, both for ourselves and for the people listening. This has been incredibly insightful. But before we wrap up, I wanna bring this back to a practical level. For those of us listening who are still, like, working on embracing vulnerability and cultivating that dialogue mindset, what's one concrete step we can take today to start putting these ideas into practice?
[00:09:07] Unknown:
That's a good question. I'd say take a minute to think about what makes you feel really comfortable and confident as a speaker. Is it a particular topic you're, like, super knowledgeable about, or maybe a certain group of people you feel totally at ease with? Once you identify that source of strength, use it as a springboard.
[00:09:24] Unknown:
Okay. So say I'm really passionate about sustainable living, and I'm talking to a group of people who are also into environmentalism.
[00:09:31] Unknown:
I can draw on that shared passion to boost my confidence and create a more natural conversational tone. Nailed it. You'll find that when you're genuinely engaged with your topic and your audience, the need for a perfectly polished, you know, persona fades away. It's less about performance and more about connection. I love that. This idea of embracing imperfection,
[00:09:52] Unknown:
of shifting from performance to connection is something I really want everyone listening to take away from this deep dive. Remember, it's not about being flawless. It's about being present, engaged, and willing to connect on a human level. Couldn't have said it better myself. And who knows? You might even find yourself enjoying the experience more along the way. Such a great point to end on. The goal is to find joy in the process, not just strive for that perfect outcome. Thank you so much for this deep dive. It's definitely given us all a lot to think about. My pleasure. Always happy to chat about this stuff. That's it for this episode, everyone. Until next time.
[00:10:36] Martin Kloss:
Hi, everyone. It's me again. Just a quick note before I let you go. I hope you found today's episode entertaining, engaging, and maybe even inspiring. If you did, please spread the word. And if you didn't, please keep it to yourself. And if you wanna know more, have any questions, or wanna work with me, please get in touch with me on martinklaus.com or on LinkedIn. Now have a great day. Go out and do something fun.
